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The Mailer Review/Volume 3, 2009/Editing Mailer: A Conversation with Jan Welt and Lana Jokel: Difference between revisions

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The Mailer Review/Volume 3, 2009/Editing Mailer: A Conversation with Jan Welt and Lana Jokel (view source)

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'''Welt:''' Needless to say, Norman was an extraordinarily complex guy. Enormously warm hearted and loyal, though I would sometimes see him fly into a rage with people he felt were insulting to him. I remember watching David McMulllin, a Wall St. guy who ran Leacock-Pennebaker Films, once trying to negotiate a deal with him. They got into this argument, over what I don’t remember exactly, but it got more and more vituperative until finally Norman went into this ferocious Texas drawl that so startled David that the negotiation immediately went in Norman’s favor. Almost instantly, he could become this whole other person entirely. In terms of our relationship, I honored him, he honored me and we always got along ... unless there was a
'''Welt:''' Needless to say, Norman was an extraordinarily complex guy. Enormously warm hearted and loyal, though I would sometimes see him fly into a rage with people he felt were insulting to him. I remember watching David McMulllin, a Wall St. guy who ran Leacock-Pennebaker Films, once trying to negotiate a deal with him. They got into this argument, over what I don’t remember exactly, but it got more and more vituperative until finally Norman went into this ferocious Texas drawl that so startled David that the negotiation immediately went in Norman’s favor. Almost instantly, he could become this whole other person entirely. In terms of our relationship, I honored him, he honored me and we always got along ... unless there was a major fuck up of some sort. Don’t forget Norman produced these films with his own money, so any fuck up was going to be a costly one. But, in the years we worked together, things rarely ever went in that direction.
major fuck up of some sort. Don’t forget Norman produced these films with his own money, so any fuck up was going to be a costly one. But, in the years we worked together, things rarely ever went in that direction.
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'''Chaiken:''' The editing of Beyond the Law follows a different kind of strategy
'''Chaiken:''' The editing of Beyond the Law follows a different kind of strategy
than ''Wild 90''. Can you talk about how the structure of that film developed?
than ''Wild 90''. Can you talk about how the structure of that film developed?
<br>
'''Welt:''' ''Wild 90'' was essentially cut flash frame to flash frame with complete,
'''Welt:''' ''Wild 90'' was essentially cut flash frame to flash frame with complete,
or almost complete, takes from a single camera. Much of what was used in ''Beyond the Law'' was also single camera stuff, but we had many more options since some of the scenes had two, even three, cameras on them. We could pick the best angle or cross cut between the two if we wanted to capture a particular expression or a certain action. We had three crews in different rooms, so with Beyond you have all of this stuff happening simultaneously. That helped to dictate the parallel structure of the film. We tried to give a sense that all of the scenes were happening in real time over a single evening when in fact it was shot over several evenings. The parallel structure of the film was determined as much by the shooting as it was by the editing. As Norman says to his troops in Maidstone, ‘you find out the nature of your attack, by attacking’ and that’s essentially how these films were made since there wasn’t any kind of script or storyboard to follow. In that sense, these films were conceived and edited almost like a verité documentary would be. You’d shoot and shoot and shoot, and then with the material you had you’d make sense of it all in the editing room.
or almost complete, takes from a single camera. Much of what was used in ''Beyond the Law'' was also single camera stuff, but we had many more options since some of the scenes had two, even three, cameras on them. We could pick the best angle or cross cut between the two if we wanted to capture a particular expression or a certain action. We had three crews in different rooms, so with Beyond you have all of this stuff happening simultaneously. That helped to dictate the parallel structure of the film. We tried to give a sense that all of the scenes were happening in real time over a single evening when in fact it was shot over several evenings. The parallel structure of the film was determined as much by the shooting as it was by the editing. As Norman says to his troops in Maidstone, ‘you find out the nature of your attack, by attacking’ and that’s essentially how these films were made since there wasn’t any kind of script or storyboard to follow. In that sense, these films were conceived and edited almost like a verité documentary would be. You’d shoot and shoot and shoot, and then with the material you had you’d make sense of it all in the editing room.
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Welt: After we finished Beyond the Law, I was twiddling my thumbs on salary. Then it all just started. Norman told me he wanted to make a movie about a film director who had become so popular that he was going to run for President of the United States. This was right after Robert Kennedy’s assassination in June 1968. Next thing I know, I’m in East Hampton making
Welt: After we finished Beyond the Law, I was twiddling my thumbs on salary. Then it all just started. Norman told me he wanted to make a movie about a film director who had become so popular that he was going to run for President of the United States. This was right after Robert Kennedy’s assassination in June 1968. Next thing I know, I’m in East Hampton making
this crazy movie with what seemed liked hundreds of others dedicated to the same crazy movie.
this crazy movie with what seemed liked hundreds of others dedicated to the same crazy movie.
<br>


'''Chaiken:''' How much footage do you estimate was shot on Maidstone?
'''Chaiken:''' How much footage do you estimate was shot on Maidstone?
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shelved.
shelved.
<br>
<br>


'''Chaiken:''' Where did you end up after working with Norman?
'''Chaiken:''' Where did you end up after working with Norman?
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another film with United Artists, so I stayed on and shot and edited ''Money
another film with United Artists, so I stayed on and shot and edited ''Money
Talks'' (1972), a nice film that has totally disappeared. I was still with Funt for
Talks'' (1972), a nice film that has totally disappeared. I was still with Funt for
a couple of years after that and worked with him on ''The New Candid Camera'' (1974) for CBS. I was also writing my own scripts and hoping to get one produced. I remember at one point, this was maybe a year or two after ''Maidstone'', Norman got the idea that he wanted to produce a porno film. This was right around the time ''Deep Throat'' (1972) and Behind the ''Green Door'' (1972) were breaking all kinds of box office records and porn was becoming chic, mainstream and profitable. I wasn’t doing much of anything so I rounded up some cohorts—Peter Locke, who now owns the Castle Studio Complex in Romania, Nina Schulman and Harvey Greenstein. For a couple of weeks we sat around the screening room of Supreme Mix tossing ideas back and forth, though in the end nothing ever came of it. Norman wanted me to not only write the script, but to also direct this thing. Finally, I put all of my notes together and came up with a screenplay titled ‘It’s a Business Doing Pleasure With You.’ I still have it kicking around and not so long ago rewrote it
a couple of years after that and worked with him on ''The New Candid Camera'' (1974) for CBS. I was also writing my own scripts and hoping to get one produced. I remember at one point, this was maybe a year or two after ''Maidstone'', Norman got the idea that he wanted to produce a porno film. This was right around the time ''Deep Throat'' (1972) and Behind the ''Green Door'' (1972) were breaking all kinds of box office records and porn was becoming chic, mainstream and profitable. I wasn’t doing much of anything so I rounded up some cohorts—Peter Locke, who now owns the Castle Studio Complex in Romania, Nina Schulman and Harvey Greenstein. For a couple of weeks we sat around the screening room of Supreme Mix tossing ideas back and forth, though in the end nothing ever came of it. Norman wanted me to not only write the script, but to also direct this thing. Finally, I put all of my notes together and came up with a screenplay titled ‘It’s a Business Doing Pleasure With You.’ I still have it kicking around and not so long ago rewrote it as a mafia comedy.
as a mafia comedy.
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who provide free health care to every Alaskan native. As media director, I’ve
who provide free health care to every Alaskan native. As media director, I’ve
been making documentaries and commercials on environmental and health
been making documentaries and commercials on environmental and health
issues. I also was able to make a feature film called Florida ~2005!, set entirely
issues. I also was able to make a feature film called ''Florida'' (2005), set entirely
in Florida but shot entirely in Alaska. My first digitally shot and edited
in Florida but shot entirely in Alaska. My first digitally shot and edited
feature.
feature.
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films to come to Alaska as long as there is Vancouver, B.C. However, the Alaskan Film Group finally agitated and got passed a bill that becomes law on June 18, 2009 that places Alaska among the top five states in the nation for a tax rebate for any productions that come here. A rebate of something like 42% of the total budget, which could be a huge incentive for producers. So, we’ll see how all that goes. In the meantime, I’ll continue to do my thing
films to come to Alaska as long as there is Vancouver, B.C. However, the Alaskan Film Group finally agitated and got passed a bill that becomes law on June 18, 2009 that places Alaska among the top five states in the nation for a tax rebate for any productions that come here. A rebate of something like 42% of the total budget, which could be a huge incentive for producers. So, we’ll see how all that goes. In the meantime, I’ll continue to do my thing
regardless.
regardless.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' Do you feel the films you made with Norman hold up and what
would you say you gained most from working with him?
<br>
'''Welt:''' For me, Beyond the Law is the one that stands best on its own. I also
think Beyond the Law (Blue) was an improvement on the original; the domfem’s murder providing a more fitting finality. ''Wild 90'' is, well, ''Wild 90'' ...
one of the first attempts to use verité techniques to make a narrative film.
Perhaps when the DVD comes out, Criterion might consider subtitling it so
it can be more easily comprehended. Norman said that, like fine wine, Maidstone would require time to mature. I haven’t seen it in twenty years, so
maybe it has. As for my take-away—what can I say; I loved the guy. I’ve certainly never run into another person as uniquely brilliant as he was. I learned
to pay full-attention all the time from his example, save when he was toasted,
which only happened after-hours. I can recall three times he came into the
office with a blackened eye from some scuffle at Elaine’s restaurant. The
world is a smaller place without him.
<br>
===Lana Jokel===
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' Where are you from originally?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' I was born in Shanghai to Chinese parents. Raised in Brazil, educated
there in a British prep school, before attending a Catholic nuns college in
America.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' How long have you lived in New York?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' I arrived in 1967 around the time I first went to work for LeacockPennebaker Films. I was a language major and spent my junior year in Paris. After college, I went to the Boston Museum of Fine Arts School. At the time, I was married to a Harvard graduate student and came to New York shortly after my divorce when I was still in my 20s.
'''Chaiken:''' Were you always interested in making films?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' No, not at all. I became involved with film by chance after meeting
D.A. Pennebaker at Max’s Kansas City. I asked him what he did and he
told me he made documentary films. I remember saying to him, ‘Documentary films?’ So, he invited me to the studio and showed me ''Don’t Look Back'' (1967), the film he had just finished on Bob Dylan, and also ''Primary'' (1960), a film he worked on about John F. Kennedy. I was totally mesmerized by these and became interested in learning how they were made.
Soon after, Pennebaker offered me a $75 a week job and promised to train
me as an editor. It was too good an opportunity to pass up, especially
because I am a visually oriented person and not good with words! So, I took
the job and was very glad I did because at the time they were just getting
back all of this fantastic footage from the Monterey Pop festival. We would
all sit in the studio until 2 or 3 in the morning just watching the rushes.
Synching the footage of ''Monterey Pop'' (1968) is how I started in film. I met
Mailer shortly after and became involved with the editing of ''Beyond the Law''
(1968).
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' Was it difficult to jump right into something like that?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' Only at first. I was very much a novice and totally intimated by Norman’s ‘Rat Pack.’ This was the sixties with everyone running around in miniskirts and you had Buzz Farber, Jose Torres and Mickey Knox running around the studio hitting on all the young girls. You can imagine what that work environment was like. I can remember, just to keep people away, I put a sign outside my door that said ‘Please do not disturb. Editor working.’
When I work, I am completely focused so those guys breathing down my neck wouldn’t do. Norman was good about it. He protected me in a way and told those guys to cool it.
<br>
Chaiken: Was there an immediate sense of how good the Beyond the Law
footage was?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' We knew after looking at the rushes that we had performances that
were raw, gritty and true to life. In that respect, I think Beyond the Law is
more successful than ''Maidstone'' (1968–1970). In ''Beyond the Law'', you had
good friends working together who knew each other intimately and understood how to push buttons to generate real emotion. The people Norman chose really got inside these characters. All of that immediately came through watching the rushes.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' Did Beyond the Law go through many successive edits?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' Beyond the Law found its proper rhythm early on and Norman took
care not to overcut it. By the time we got to ''Maidstone'', he had become
obsessed with editing.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' Do you feel that hurt the film?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' For my taste, ''Maidstone'' is overcut. You have all these levels of fantasy
and reality, where Norman’s personal life is mixed up with the life of this
director. You get all of these different sides of Norman Mailer; the writer, the
father, the husband and the friend mixed up with his fantasy of running for
president and his fantasies of becoming a serious film director which, as an
editor, I found totally fascinating. I set out with Jan and Norman to weave all
of this, like a tapestry, but during the course of the weaving I think some of
the threads got lost. Looking back now, I can understand why the critics were
so hard on certain aspects of the film. I can remember editing the scene
where he is casting and says to one of the girls ‘You have beautiful eyes, but
your lips are too thin.’ In the context of the film and the character Norman
is playing it comes across demeaning. Remember, this was right at the beginning of the Feminist movement. One never sees any of Norman’s vulnerability in the film until the very end in that incredible scene with Rip. For me, that one scene changes the entire mood of the film.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' Were you involved in the ''Maidstone'' shoot?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' No, because every summer I’d go home to see my family in Brazil.
Norman asked me to be in it and I remember telling him that I was very shy
and wouldn’t be good in front of the camera, though I’d love to be part of
the editing team. He said ‘Great. I’ll wait for you to come back.’ When I
returned to New York in the fall the film had been shot and Norman asked
Jan and I to start work on it almost immediately. He was very loyal in that
way, which is one of the things I admired most about him. Many years later,
I asked him why he hired me to edit, considering I had virtually no experience. He told me that he liked my intuition and also the fact that I didn’t go
to film school so I wasn’t bogged down by rules. He also said he liked my
‘nimble oriental fingers’ (''laughs'')
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' What do you remember most about the editing of Maidstone?
Jokel: I was very fortunate that Norman let me edit certain scenes, but it
could be frustrating because he was so articulate about what he wanted. I’d suggest a way to cut a scene and he would go on and on about how he thought it should be done. It got to the point where I just looked at him and said ‘Norman you are so articulate and I am just the opposite. You’ll always win in the argument, but my instincts tell me that we should ....’ More often than not, Norman would tell me the way he wanted a scene to work and then
afterwards turn to me and say ‘Ok, let’s try it your way.’We were dealing with
so much material that initially it was chaos. The first thing we did was to
watch all the rushes. That took awhile because there was close to forty hours
of material to contend with. At the beginning, I don’t think Norman was
sure what he had. He certainly wasn’t sure how he was going to pull it all
together. It felt almost like we were working on a documentary. As we began
to put certain shots or scenes next to one another, it began to take on its own
kind of logic. Themes began to develop. Very much like writing, I suppose.
Later, like in a novel, Norman even added chapter titles. It took awhile
though and things were not made very clear to me. Especially the way the
film kept jumping from one scene to the next. I remember the dream
sequence very well and watching it in rough cut for the first time. Not many
people know that the soundtrack to that sequence is a recording of Norman
making love with Carol Stevens.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' In terms of editing, ‘The Dream Sequence’ is the most complex
scene in the film. Can you talk about how it came together and what Norman’s intentions were for the scene?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' That scene is very erotic to me, principally because of the soundtrack.
In a way, it sums up the entire film using sound and image in the place of
dialogue or narration. The long walking shot is the unifying thread. The film
flashes backwards and forwards—leaving a lot of room for ambiguity and
for the audience to make of it what they will. Norman had huge respect for
the intelligence of his audience and wasn’t looking to pander to them in
obvious ways. The sequence is composed of these abrupt juxtapositions
where levels of fantasy, reality and dream merge together and come apart as
if Kingsley’s past, present and future are flashing before his eyes. It’s also,
quite literally, the ‘death of the director’ since at that moment the film looses
any pretense of narrative order and logic. A lot of the things Norman was
aiming for in the film weren’t explained, but it had its own flow and style
unique to a Norman Mailer film.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' With Norman running for Mayor of New York and writing Of A
Fire On the Moon in the middle of editing Maidstone, were there long gaps
in the work?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' There was so much footage that even when Norman wasn’t in the
editing room we were working. Synching everything took a huge amount of
time. But Norman was around more often than not because he was so
enthusiastic about the project and wanted to be there despite how busy he
was. He was on a real high throughout the entire process. At the time, critics really took him to task for his supposed charlatanism when it came to
directing, but they never understood how totally serious he was about his
films. If Maidstone had been more of a financial success, I’m certain he
would have gone on to make many more.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' How did the film find its structure?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' It was process of elimination. Because there was so much footage and
since there was no script to follow, we experimented. At one stage, I can
remember the film being a bit clearer and more linear. Then it got chopped
up and folded in on itself. I remember once we assembled the rough cut
thinking that all the film really needed was bit of a fine-tuning and that
would do it, but Norman wanted to continue to play with it and shift it
about. Editing this way, before computers, it’s hard to come back to what
you’ve lost. My fantasy would be to re-edit Maidstone and restore it to its
original length, with all of the different corners and plot twists that got cut.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' What was next for you after ''Maidstone''?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' After working with Norman, I worked on the Jimi Hendrix and Richie
Havens sequences in Michael Wadleigh’s ''Woodstock'' (1970). After that, I got taken on by Andy Warhol and director Paul Morrissey.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' How did you meet Warhol and Morrissey?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' After ''Maidstone'', I began editing documentaries on contemporary art
for producer Michael Blackwood and his brother Christian, a great cinematographer who has since passed away. I edited a film on the NY School of Abstract Expressionism and another on American Art in the sixties. That’s how I first met Andy and Paul. Paul hired me and Jed Johnson, Warhol’s boyfriend at the time, to edit his films ''Heat'' (1972) and ''L’Amour'' (1973). Warhol was the producer of both films and rented a house for us to work in East
Hampton. What could be better, right? Paul and Andy would come out on the weekends and I got to know them both very well. I worked at the Factory for about a year and a half after that. I remember Andy saying to me ‘Why don’t you have a Factory baby so I can be the Godfather?’ I had a boyfriend at the time, but had no intention of having a baby. It was the period
right when Warhol was beginning to do all those commissioned portraits for a lot of money.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' It was around this time that you directed your first film?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' After Heat, I was editing again for Michael Blackwood. He had a connection at a German television station, who commissioned him to make a
number of documentaries. Michael asked if I had any ideas and I told him
that I would love to make my own film on Andy Warhol. We presented a proposal to German TV and Michael got us the money. Since I had access to Warhol, it all seemed to make sense. The only problem was I’d never directed a film before. When you are very young, it’s amazing how fearless you are. I was convinced I could do it so I went ahead. I hired a great cameraman in New York, Mark Woodcock, who worked with Pennebaker. I went with Andy, Paul and Jed to Cannes for the premiere of Heat and took my own camera, a non-sync, handheld, 16mm Cannon Scoopic. I filmed our entire European trip and used a little tape recorder on the side to capture our conversations along the way. I edited together all of this wild footage I shot, alongside the material Mark shot in New York. Many people still think it’s
one of the best documentaries on Andy because I was able to get him to
open up and talk in front of the camera, which was unusual for him.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' It’s interesting that you ended up with Warhol after working with
Mailer considering they seem to occupy almost opposite ends of the cultural spectrum.
Jokel: Bob Hughes, the art critic for Time magazine who was a close friend,
was furious that I was working with Warhol. But I learned a lot from him
and it was exciting, all consuming and fun. Of course, I have this whole other
Chinese side of my personality, so even as I was very much a part of the Factory scene, I always remained a bit outside of it. It was a wonderful experience, but I also saw a lot of self-destruction. I don’t think Norman thought much of Warhol’s work, but even he couldn’t deny what a phenomenon Andy was. Like Warhol or not, there is no way to ignore his brilliance and perception.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' Do you feel critics at the time treated Norman’s films fairly?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' No. Critics love to put people in boxes. In America, especially, they just
wouldn’t accept Norman as a filmmaker. Despite this, I thought he was very
daring to just go out there and do it, to put so much of himself out there.
What most of the critics missed is how deeply personal and ahead of its time
Maidstone is.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' After working with Norman and Andy, you directed, shot and
edited several films on your own. I’d like to ask you about two projects specifically, your portrait of artist Larry Rivers and the documentaries you made
on Chinese contemporary art. You first met Rivers through Warhol?
Jokel: Yes, Andy introduced me to him the summer we were editing Heat.
Larry had his studio in Southampton so we would see him often. He and
Andy were the first two artists I knew shooting films on Sony Portapak
video. Eventually, I became very good friends with Larry and his second wife
Clarice.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' One of the most striking things about Larry Rivers: Public and Private ~1993! is the intimacy between director and subject . . .
Jokel: By the time I made the film on Larry, it was the early nineties and I’d
known him for twenty years. I was able to ask very provocative questions and
he gave me answers that were direct and honest. Some might say shockingly
so. Larry was such a complex and creative individual. I wanted to show all
the different sides of him—the artist, the man, the father, the husband and
the musician. It was my job to weave all of this together. That’s truly what I
love most about the documentary process.
<br>
'''Chaiken:''' It’s an enormously accomplished film in that respect. How long
did it take to edit?
<br>
'''Jokel:''' What happened was immediately after I’d finished cinematography on
the Rivers film my father died of Alzheimer’s. I was very close to him and
when he died I was devastated. After the funeral in Brazil, I came back to
Bridgehampton and had a Steenbeck shipped to my studio there. I worked
non-stop through the summer. I’d get up at six in the morning, jump in the
MWalker
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edits

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