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J. Michael Lennon is the author or editor of several books, including A Double Life, the authorized biography of Norman Mailer (Simon & Schuster,2013). Lennon was a founder of The Norman Mailer Society and has served as President of the Society for most of its existence. His deep, long-term friendship with Mailer has inspired a number of works by Lennon and he is currently co-editing, with Susan Mailer and Jerry Lucas, Norman Mailer’s Lipton’s Journal, a reflective, introspective journal focusing on Mailer’s marijuana experience, written in 1954-1955. Lennon is also writing a memoir, “Getting on the Bus: Mailer’s Last Years in Provincetown,” which chronicles his experiences with Norman Mailer.

Phillip Sipiora: I would like to begin by thanking you, Mike, for meeting with me and talking about the state of Mailer Studies, which is obviously a critical issue, and not just for Mailer, but of course for all authors, societies and significant writers. So, let me begin by starting with a small question. You knew Norman Mailer for nearly four decades and you served as founding president of the Norman Mailer Society. I’m not aware of anyone alive who knows more about Norman Mailer as friend, major literary figure, and public intellectual.What is your most powerful and lasting memory of him?

J. Michael Lennon: : It’s not an easy question. I have so many memories of Norman. But one of the things that has always impressed me about him, right to the very end, is work ethic. Norman was always devoted to the literary arts,which took a toll on other relationships.Yet it was it was something that drove him. For example,when he entered the hospital for his last round of operations and treatments, he brought with him a half dozen books on Adolf Hitler. I was just stunned by that! I thought, oh, my God, when is he going to give it a break? No, he just didn’t give up. As a writer, he was devoted to the notion that the novel was the art form that had the greatest capacity for understanding society and human psychology. He believed the novel made the world more understandable, made it a better place to live in.

The other issue that comes to mind is his identity as an insider/outsider. Norman knew a lot of famous people, of course, including Muhammad Ali, Jack Kennedy, Bill Clinton, John Lennon, and practically every one of his major contemporaries in the United States: Bellow, Mary McCarthy, Robert Lowell, Dwight Macdonald, the Beats—Kerouac, Ginsberg and Burroughs— Bill Styron, Henry Miller, Lillian Hellman, Bill Kennedy, George Plimpton, Diana Trilling, James Baldwin, Gay Talese, John Irving, Joyce Carol Oates, Philip Roth, and James Jones (his dearest friend), and Don DeLillo (with whom he had a special kinship), and Gore Vidal and Truman Capote, with whom he had off-and-on friendships with—I could name more. He also knew many major writers around the world, including Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Carlos Fuentes, Romain Gary, Salman Rushdie, Martin Amis, and Günter Grass. But he never really wanted to be a conspicuous part of the literary establishment.. He wanted to maintain a modicum of distance from it so that he could criticize it; he was resolute about not losing his independent perspective, and so he backed out of many activities. However, he was president of PEN for a couple of years, and yes, that is certainly the establishment. But he got out of there after only two years. He called it his “church work.”With Norman there was always the sense of “I want to be an outsider. I do not want to be trammeled by my affiliations with any literary, political or what-have-you establishment to the extent that it will dampen my independence, or constrict my perspective.” Norman felt that one must be there to speak to one’s time on the planet. He was also exceptionally devoted to his family and his friends; there had to be at least fifty people who thought of themselves as “Norman Mailer’s best friend.” He had a kind of openness, candor, and generosity of spirit with his friends and his family, a personal magnetism.

PS: Do you feel that this duality of insider and outsider hurt him at times? Did it accelerate tensions or create conflicts that perhaps someone with a more stable identity of either insider or outsider might not encounter?

JML: : Oh,I think that there were definitely losses that came from him jumping back and forth across that fence. But, overall, I think that it was a plus. It enabled him to maintain his singular critical perspective. For example, giving up two years of his life leading PEN meant he wasn’t writing much during that time, and he had regrets about that. But once he was in it, he stuck to his commitment, including organizing and hosting the International PEN conference, and rewriting the bylaws of the organization. Gay Talese told me that Norman came in and organized numerous committees, and this required rewriting the bylaws. They were needed, so Norman just sat down and personally re-wrote them. Gay Talese could not believe it.Well, that was Norman; he threw himself right into things.

He lost a lot of time, however, doing things like that. Another example was running for mayor of NewYork with Jimmy Breslin. He gave away a big chunk of time in  on that campaign He said that, if elected, he would give up writing. I think he must have had his fingers crossed when he said that. All of these forays, including filmmaking, cost him a great deal of lost time and he had regrets. But, on the other hand, there was a part of him that rebelled against the grind of writing six hours a day,six days a week, and felt the need to get out in the world and get roughed up. Right to the end he was seeking new experience, which he once called “the church of one’s acquired knowledge.”

As a novelist, he was an ethnographer, and studied the ethos of a society, the main currents and obscure corners of its identity. That was something that he never stopped doing. He felt the need to out there, get immersed, and get roughed up, and then he’d jump over the fence, hide away and write. If you look at all the places where he lived, you see that New York City was always his primary residence. But he also had Provincetown,Vermont, New Hampshire, Stockbridge, and Bucks County, country places to which he could retreat when NewYork was driving him crazy with all the demands for him to appear on talk shows and go to social events. At a certain point he would get sick of that scene, and had to get away to get some work done. The insider-outsider identity was something that he cultivated. When he was living in Stockbridge, in western Massachusetts,with his fifth wife,Carol Stevens, he would get bored and say, “I have to go to New York City. I need some action.” Consequently, he moved fairly regularly between New York City and quieter, bucolic places, where he could write in peace. For a writer of his sensibilities and ambition, this alternation was a wise strategy

PS: The past few years have surely been pivotal for Mailer Studies. After the publication of A Double Life, you and your wife, Donna Pedro, returned to Works and Days, a groundbreaking resource that not only chronicled what Mailer said and did from the beginning of his creative life, but also cataloged commentary on him and his work, as well as his numerous appearances. You published the first edition in 2000 (Sligo Press) and then, in 2018, you, Donna and Jerry Lucas brought out an expanded, revised edition. But let me go back in time. How did you become acquainted with Norman?

JML: At first, it was an epistolary relationship. In December 1970, I wrote to him after he appeared on The Dick Cavett Show where he had his infamous encounter with Gore Vidal and also interacted with Janet Flanner (and Cavett, of course). I wrote him a long letter about the show, and about the ideas in the dissertation that I was then writing, and right away I received a long letter back. I was very surprised that he answered me so quickly. That led to a series of letters with him before I actually met him in the flesh in October 1972 (parenthetically, the same month he first met Larry Schiller), when he was on a speaking tour during the McGovern-Nixon campaign. He was speaking at Western Illinois University, and I was teaching at the University of Illinois, Springfield, about 100 miles away, so I took my Mailer seminar up there to hear him speak. .I met him, and he remembered our correspondence. After he spoke, we spent the whole evening at a bar talking and closed the bar down about 1:30 in the morning. That meeting established our relationship. In the summers after that, when my wife and my family would go back to New England, we would visit him either in Maine or in Provincetown. This went on for many years until finally in 1997 we bought a condo in Provincetown So, our relationship began in a scholarly way, with my writing about Vidal and Cavett, and about my ideas about the shift in his writing to what we now call creative nonfiction. Over time, it grew into a personal relationship, a friendship.

PS: How did your scholarly interest and then your personal relationship with Norman evolve into archival work, which you have been known for over many decades?

JML: Well, I’d never thought of myself as an archivist. I never knew much about what it entailed. But I found myself, even before I met Norman, collecting virtually every reference to him that I ran across.At first,I bought all the scholarly books and essays in journals that I could find. But then, it dawned on me that a lot of the most interesting things he was saying were spoken in public forums, and in interviews and profiles, a lot of it spontaneous, candid, and playful. His 1963 Paris Review interview with Steve Marcus is still crucial for understanding how he became the kind of writer he was. He said much in that interview that still resonates, his comments about E.M. Forster and the architecture of the novel, for example.

I began to realize that these public utterances were just as important to understanding Norman’s work as the analyses of his work in professional journals.I realized that if you wanted to understand Mailer, you had to hear him,see him up close, and observe his public speaking off the cuff,where he revealed himself in a way that was quite profound. And so I began collecting all those resources, which came at the same time I developed a friendship with his then-authorized biographer, Robert Lucid, a University of Pennsylvania professor. I began helping Bob collect manuscripts and materials that were piling up in Mailer’s study, his basement, and in his mother’s house.

Donna and I would go down to New York with our station wagon, fill it up with manuscripts, and take them over to the storage vault in New York City.We did that for a long time, beginning in the late 1970s. That storage facility, a big steel locker,was about four feet high and ten feet long, and it was completely packed. When we didn’t know what to do with all those manuscripts, galleys, letters, research materials, I suggested that we leave the primary resources in storage, and I’d take all of the secondary materials, the reviews and interviews and magazines containing pieces on him, quite a pile. The primary materials were obviously the most important, including manuscripts that had not been published, marked up galleys, and things like that.

And Norman’s letters! Boxes of them containing every incoming letter of any consequence he’d received from the time he was at Harvard, and carbons of all his outgoing letters. We left the correspondence and all of primary manuscripts and I took everything else, which was a substantial trove. For example, Mailer regularly spoke at colleges and universities, and many other symposia and conferences. He would speak on a campus and then the college newspaper would write a story on it, usually with pertinent quotations. They would mail a copy to him and he would throw it in a pile and it would wind up the archive. Initially, I took all of those materials in order to make room, but, really, I wanted to examine, preserve, and mine this material as well. In effect, we solved two problems. We began to collect records of the public presence of Norman Mailer from local magazines and newspapers around the country, and we also created new space for his ever-burgeoning primary collection. So, little by little, I became an archivist.

As I collected, I began to categorize things and organize them chronologically and thematically, putting documents into archival boxes.I was basically feeling my way and creating my own referential system. But I didn’t know what I was doing.As an aside,I would note that most Ph.D. programs in that era offered little in the way of archival instruction. All I knew is that I didn’t want to discard these resources, and I wanted to use them in my writing. The first journal article on Mailer I published, back in 1970, in Modern Fiction Studies, was a survey and analysis of his presence in popular media.Along the way I learned, by hook or by crook about archival and bibliographic methods. The first book that I did with Mailer grew out of his archive, a 1982 book called Pieces and Pontifications, which I first suggested to Norman in 1977. It took five years to put it together, and my part was selecting and editing 20 interviews with him, which was a great experience. Perhaps, I thought, we should also include, in addition to the 20, excerpts from a number of minor interviews in a kind of montage. I argued for doing that for a while, and Norman gave it some thought. We finally threw it out the window.

But then Norman decided to add a dozen essays that he had written over the previous decade. He came up with a number of titles, one of which I remember: “After the White Negro.”But after he read the entire manuscript he supplied the final title, which I’ve always thought to be wickedly clever. In 1982, Pieces and Pontifications became my first book, and that propelled me into me collecting materials of all sorts: invitations to publication parties, sample dust jackets for his books (Mailer designed many of these), audio interviews, and videos of television appearances, reprints of various essays and stories in obscure publications, promo materials from his publishers, etc., etc. This was really the beginning of Works and Days, which grew as a manuscript through the 1980s and 1990s. Donna and I completed it during my sabbatical in 1998, and it was published in 2000. Norman liked it, having forgotten so much, and contributed a short preface. I’m an archivist, but not because when I was a young man I said, “I’m going to grow up to be an archivist.” I just fell into it, and then I found that it was a suit of clothes that fit me pretty well.

PS: Well understood. Speaking of archival evolution, the entire world seems to be becoming become digitized. And the electronic reconfiguration of Mailer resources has surely become a central part of contemporary Mailer Studies.Can you comment in general about this evolving and complex configuration of scholarly and popular access, digital access, and how it relates to making Mailer’s life and work more accessible, not only for scholars, but also for interested readers?

JML: Yes, we are clearly part of the revolution. I think that Jerry Lucas has proved to be a superb digital humanist, steering the ship with the work he’s done for Project Mailer, which is one of the main activities of the Mailer Society. Jerry knows much more about digital technology than anyone I know, and it has been a pleasure collaborating with him. A critical aspect of digitized Mailer is access, which is easy as the software is programmed to remember your previous searches. In earlier times we all had to go to libraries, locate microfilm copies, and read them on blurry screens. I well remember, when writing my master’s thesis, reading old microfilms of the New Republic, Dial, Vanity Fair, and the New Yorker, dating back to the 1920s. It was very laborious and difficult, but now digitization has made the process much easier. Works and Days is now available in a digital as well as a print format and I like the fact that there are both. Having the book right next to me on the shelf, I can find what I need much more quickly than I can by going online, but if I’m doing deep searches, for example, word searches, I can’t use the book. But it is going to be a long time before the digital world catches up with all of Mailer’s public appearances. Jerry and I have discussed putting all my archive on line, about 1500 items.

Much has been lost because many college magazines and newspapers have never been digitized. There is always going to be a print component until, sometime in the distant future, everything is formatted digitally. People contact me all the time for copies of obscure profiles and interviews with Mailer. Hardly a week goes by without someone asking me where Mailer said this or that, or where did something appear. I often respond by saying, “Have you looked at Works and Days? Have you looked at Jerry Lucas’s index to Works and Days? Have you looked at the date that your item appeared, and then checked contemporaneous items in Works and Days to see if they are pertinent?” Mailer would often hold a press conference and there would be a half dozen newspaper and wire service reporters there, and they would all write a different story. So if you read one of these stories, you ought to read the other ones because if you put them all together you’ll get a much richer sense of what he really said. For example, his news conference when Harlot’s Ghost came out. And the one for Ancient Evenings. You can’t get it all just by reading the New York Times story. You need to read the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and the Minneapolis Star and all the pieces by the other reporters who were in the room. I’m regularly steering people to Project Mailer, where they can access these things. In the old days, I would copy and email articles to people. I still do that.

Jerry Lucas is doing magnificent things in Project Mailer, which he founded, that I couldn’t even dream of, especially digitizing all of Works and Days, and posting other resources like all of the Prefaces, Forwards, and Introductions that Mailer wrote for about twenty-five books by other writers. Many of them appeared in obscure books, in some cases going back to the 1960s, and were out of print. Justin Bozung has been posting podcasts related to Mailer, another valuable resource. The Walt Whitman Archive at the University of Nebraska is another exemplary website. I grew up in American Renaissance studies and taught Whitman for years. The Whitman Archive is magnificent; you can access, for example, the contemporary reviews of Leaves of Grass. Whitman’s different editions came out over a forty-year period. Every new edition was reviewed and now you can read the reviews. The same thing is being done with Emerson at the New York Public Library. I don’t know if they’re doing the same thing with Hemingway.

PS: Yes, Hemingway Studies are digitized. You bring back some wonderful archival memories. When I was a young graduate student, I recall spending days looking at microfiche records. I referred to those days as my “fishing time.” What you say, Mike, about the digitizing of Mailer Studies is striking. As you know, I have worked with Jerry Lucas for a long time.

JML: I know, you were his mentor. Jerry is exemplary and his knowledge of the digital world is phenomenal. And he continues to evolve unabated. He’s constantly working on things that are new.

PS: I certainly join you on that and I continue to turn to Jerry for technical advice related to all kinds of research activities and electronic teaching strategies. Some things never change. My next question relates to the importance of the establishment of the Mailer Library at Wilkes. When was it chartered, why is it particularly important, and what will it hold?

JML: In about 2005, Norman became affiliated with Wilkes University in a formal way. He became chairperson of the advisory committee for the new MFA program in Creative Writing. In the decade before that, I began donating first editions of his books and various magazines and memorabilia to Wilkes. In 2005, Norman said that we could display all of his major awards, including his Pulitzer Prize, his National Book Award, the Emerson Medal from the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, as well as all of his other medals, awards, and honorary degrees. Everything was enshrined in a room called the Mailer Room, which is in the E. S. Farley Library at Wilkes University. The centerpiece of the room is his former dining room table, a huge, beveled glass and wrought iron table.

PS: A very impressive, eclectic donation.

JML: When Norris and Norman donated the table, and his awards and memorabilia, we arranged for a truck to pick it up. There are now photos on the wall, glass cases with all his awards, and bookcases that contain virtually every major critical book about him and every one of his works. And most of them are signed and inscribed to the library. That was the start.

When Mailer died, Norris donated all of his library to the Norman Mailer Center, which had been established by Larry Schiller. Larry’s hope was to establish Norman’s library, of approximately 7,000 volumes, at a university where they would take good care of it. For years Larry tried to find a good home and he struck out. Harvard didn’t want it. The Ransom Center at University of Texas, where Mailer’s papers are located, didn’t want it. Finally, Bonnie Culver, the director of the Maslow MFA Program, and I worked with the Farley library at Wilkes, where we already had a foothold, and they were very interested. All of Mailer’s library will eventually be there; three quarters of it is already there. About four or five thousand volumes have been transported, waiting to be catalogued. Larry also packed up Norman’s study in Provincetown, including his desk, chair, lamp, pencils, pens, and various paraphernalia, as well as all the books, dictionaries, and thesauruses that surrounded him in his third-floor study in Provincetown. Bonnie organized the moving of these items from where they were stored in Massachusetts, got them trucked to Wilkes. Donna and I were there for a day helping. His study has now been re-established in a room in the Farley, one approximately the same size as Norman’s study in Provincetown. When you walk in you see the bookcases, the books, the desk, and photos on the wall, including the green Bellevue sign, which was Norman’s reminder of the 17 days that he spent in Bellevue Hospital in 1960 after stabbing Adele, his second wife. The Wilkes collection is a great adjunct to what is archived at the Harry Ransom Center, but it can never exceed it, because Texas has all the manuscripts. Wilkes, however, has the complete Mailer library, which one might say represents the contents of his mind.

The Texas archive does includes Mailer’s research volumes and papers for several of his books, a few hundred books. Mailer also had about 1500 books in a writing room he had in another building in Brooklyn, all of which will eventually be located at Wilkes. The only life portrait ever been painted of Norman is now also in the Farley collection. It was painted by a fine Cape Cod artist, Nancy Ellen Craig, when Norman sat for her in the late 1960s. It is very large, four feet by four feet, approximately. Mailer’s daughter Danielle and her husband Peter McEachern bought and then donated the painting. I recently received papers associated with Mailer’s house in Brooklyn, ownership papers, remodeling papers, permission forms from the zoning boards, and documentation to allow them to sell the house. These also came from Danielle and Peter, and are going to Wilkes. So not only will we have his study from Provincetown, but we will also have documents related to his Brooklyn residence, which accumulated over the half-century he lived at 142 Columbia Heights.

PS: That is quite a chunk of authorial history. In relation to the archival work that you have already mentioned, there is the forthcoming publication of his Lipton’s Journal, written in 1954–55 and edited by you and Jerry Lucas, and Susan Mailer. What can you tell us about the gravity of Lipton’s Journal?

JML: The manuscript is in the Ransom Center.I have the carbon copy,which Mailer gave me years ago. Lipton’s is a 110,000-word marijuana journal. He wrote it over a four-month period from the end of 1954 to the beginning of 1955.It is a pivotal piece of work, yet it was never edited or published. He just wrote it and put it away. It became the clearinghouse for his mind in that period, and a stalking horse for The White Negro. It also anticipates many of the ideas in his columns in The Village Voice, the newspaper that he cofounded in 1955. Most important, it is the last remaining major piece of Mailer writing that has not been published (there are two very brief excerpts from it that appeared in small magazines back in the 1970s and 1980s). Susan Mailer, Norman’s eldest child, a practicing psychoanalyst, became very interested in it, because it is, among other things, Norman’s self-analysis. Once she read it, she recognized its importance. She and I then began editing it, eliminating considerable repetition, adding clarifying notes, to turn it into a readable document. As written, it is quite difficult to read. The repetitions and abbreviations are maddening. There are about 600 numbered entries, but they are mis-numbered and disordered. Susan and I did a preliminary edit and cut it down by approximately forty percent.

Jerry Lucas is now going through the manuscript, editing it as needed. He will be a co-editor with Susan and me when it is ready for publication. Accompanying it will be Mailer’s contemporaneous correspondence with psychoanalyst Robert Lindner, who Mailer sent copies of many of the journal’s entries for comment. Some of Mailer’s letters to Linder, who was a close friend, have been published in my edition of Mailer’s letters, but not all. Donna located Lindner’s daughter, who also happens to be a psychoanalyst, and Susan got in touch with her and obtained permission to publish her father’s letters to Norman. They will be in an appendix to the journal manuscript.

PS: It’s great to hear that you are winding up the Lipton’s Journal. When do you anticipate publication?

JML: I’m not sure. Much of that will be up to Jerry and his editing, after which Susan and I will go over it one more time. It has been held up a little because Susan was immersed in completing her memoir, In Another Place: My Life with and without My Father, Norman Mailer. We would like to publish Lipton’s in Mailer’s centenary year, 2023.

PS: After a long, long time, the Library of America finally began publishing Norman Mailer.Why is this development so important for his stature in the future?

JML: It is recognition that Mailer is a canonical author. It is a recognition that his work is going to be kept in print and available in scholarly editions for the foreseeable future. The Library of America, which was founded in the 1970s, publishes only a small number of books. In fact, only about three hundred and twenty-five books, all told. Early on, they published only long deceased authors. However, over the past ten years or so, they changed that policy. Now, Updike, Roth, Sontag, and Didion volumes have come out, all Mailer contemporaries. The first two Mailer volumes, published in 2018, contain four of his books from the 1960s, and about 35 of his essays from that decade. The question now is whether to go forward into the 1970s or go back to his earlier work, like The Naked and the Dead. We are having discussions on the schedule, although no conclusions have yet been reached.